Parkzone Visionaire
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Parkzone Visionaire
So as I mentioned in some other threads, I picked up a Visionaire on Saturday as a training tool before I take up my Edge 540. I know it isn't a traditional "trainer" type plane but it is very similar in style to the Edge, has the size I need for using the grass runway at my flying field, and well... it's a plane, how hard can it be, right?
So I took it up for my first ever plane flight on Sunday. Great day. mid 60's. Slight breeze (flag barely twitching). Not a cloud to be seen.
First flight went well. Had some help for pre-flight inspection to make sure I put it together right and got the transmitter set right. Taxied out and took off without issue. Climbed did some clockwise circuits while my coach helped on the trim buttons to dial out some climbing tendency. Then proceeded with some more circuits and a figure eight or two. Then something odd happened. IT was off my left, about 10 o'clock, 15-20 ft up. I was making a tightish right turn, 180 degrees to come flying across the field left to right when, at the end of the turn it very quickly basically did a half roll to inverted. I didn't direct it to do it so far as I know. I don't think it was going slow enough to tip stall. It just rolled. I was totally unprepared for this. I hadn't even attempted a loop yet. I was already into the up elevator since the nose was dipping at the end of the turn. I instinctively hit throttle hold and since I was on the elevator already I yanked back hard and when it was rightside up again flipped off throttle hold and gunned it. Managed to climb out and after a couple of slow passes to get a feel for glide characteristics, landed it and that was it for the first flight.
Little later did a second flight. Did a loop and a roll. Was doing some figure eights when the same damn thing happened as in the first flight, same spot in the field and same orientation. IT rolled inverted. Except this time I was closer to the ground when it did it. I didn't managed to pull it out this time and ended up breaking the prop and bending up the gear a bit.
So... anyone got ideas on why it is rolling to inverted when executing the 180 right hand turn? It has an AS3X receiver in it. That seems to be doing it's job as far as correcting wind effects and whatnot. The turns were low bank turns for the most part, under low to moderate speed. I was tending to use a lot of rudder and only enough aileron and elevator to try to keep it relatively level through the turn without skidding too much.
I did notice that once on the second flight while I was making a left hand turn, this one very wide and high and under medium power, it did the same thing, but I fed in a lot of opposing aileron in time to correct it before it got too crazy.
Any idea on this issue welcome. I'm going to sim a bit tonight and try out the same kind of turn at the same orientation to see if I can replicate the behavior in sim. Wondering if I was at or near stall and didn't realize it. That or else I was feeding incorrect aileron on turn exit and ended up rolling it myself without realizing it.
So I took it up for my first ever plane flight on Sunday. Great day. mid 60's. Slight breeze (flag barely twitching). Not a cloud to be seen.
First flight went well. Had some help for pre-flight inspection to make sure I put it together right and got the transmitter set right. Taxied out and took off without issue. Climbed did some clockwise circuits while my coach helped on the trim buttons to dial out some climbing tendency. Then proceeded with some more circuits and a figure eight or two. Then something odd happened. IT was off my left, about 10 o'clock, 15-20 ft up. I was making a tightish right turn, 180 degrees to come flying across the field left to right when, at the end of the turn it very quickly basically did a half roll to inverted. I didn't direct it to do it so far as I know. I don't think it was going slow enough to tip stall. It just rolled. I was totally unprepared for this. I hadn't even attempted a loop yet. I was already into the up elevator since the nose was dipping at the end of the turn. I instinctively hit throttle hold and since I was on the elevator already I yanked back hard and when it was rightside up again flipped off throttle hold and gunned it. Managed to climb out and after a couple of slow passes to get a feel for glide characteristics, landed it and that was it for the first flight.
Little later did a second flight. Did a loop and a roll. Was doing some figure eights when the same damn thing happened as in the first flight, same spot in the field and same orientation. IT rolled inverted. Except this time I was closer to the ground when it did it. I didn't managed to pull it out this time and ended up breaking the prop and bending up the gear a bit.
So... anyone got ideas on why it is rolling to inverted when executing the 180 right hand turn? It has an AS3X receiver in it. That seems to be doing it's job as far as correcting wind effects and whatnot. The turns were low bank turns for the most part, under low to moderate speed. I was tending to use a lot of rudder and only enough aileron and elevator to try to keep it relatively level through the turn without skidding too much.
I did notice that once on the second flight while I was making a left hand turn, this one very wide and high and under medium power, it did the same thing, but I fed in a lot of opposing aileron in time to correct it before it got too crazy.
Any idea on this issue welcome. I'm going to sim a bit tonight and try out the same kind of turn at the same orientation to see if I can replicate the behavior in sim. Wondering if I was at or near stall and didn't realize it. That or else I was feeding incorrect aileron on turn exit and ended up rolling it myself without realizing it.
Paul Volcko
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Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Check ur throws and make sure they are equal... On stunt planes I have found setting up dual rates and expo a good thing.. That way u can grow into aggressive manuvering as ur confidence grow and u feel more comfy. Ur manual most likely has throw ranges to start u off right. Each plane will differ in its flight characteristics... Could be stalling... Kinda like when u bank ur heli and pull elevator in a hurricane turn.. But if u pull too hard the turn no longer draws out big and smooth.. It just kinda does a 180 & u loose the momentum... Only difference is a heli stays afloat.. Planes won't .. Mostly.. So without seeing it do as u described.. I invision a stall... One other thing to consider.. Ur RX. I don't kno of any rc pilot that likes those park flyer stabilization RX's. On a big bird certain gyros seem welcomed... But I personally have no expierience w that RX, but as I said.. Nobody round here likes them. Hope that was helpful Paul.. I was almost gonna put my P-48 in the truck the other day.. Need to.. Haven't flown plank in about a year!
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
I was using 60% D/R with 10% expo. Controls felt very soft. But I'm used to staying around center for the most part with heli flying. Next time I get it up in the air I'll be using the 70% D/R setting to see how it goes.
I may setup the As3X with 0 gains for normal mode so I can fly it direct without it screwing with things, or throw in a standard Rx without stabilization. Thing is, I know one of the reasons they started with the AS3X was because they were putting out planes that required it to fly at all. Kind of like how modern fighter jets absolutely need computer control fly-by-wire because they fly for crap without the computer control making things go right. Visionaire is a big foamie though. Hopefully it is relatively stable without the assistance.
I also was doing some reading and I think my CG was way nose heavy. I was fighting a very strong nose up tendency under power. I dialed in a lot of down elevator to compensate. I didn't do a whole lot of gliding to see if the nose dipped hard when I let off the power. And when I was landing it was under very low power, but I was also focused on maintaining level flight to ground so didn't notice where I had elevator stick. With nose heavy I've read that it will tend to have this counter intuitive nose up under power tendency and then also tends toward canopy side when in knife edge. I think maybe that is what was going on, and because I was in normal flight mode the AS3X gains are pretty mild so it nosed over to inverted when I was in high bank at the end of the slow 180 turns and was starting to get on the throttle.
At least that's my thinking at the moment.
My new problem is that I bought an APC prop, but it won't fit on the motor shaft. So I need to drill out the hub. I don't own a press and even if I did, the bit I need to use is bent enough where the hole would be crap. So I ordered up a metric and standard stepped prop reamer and also a continuous tapered reamer in case I don't like the stepped ones. If that fails, then I'll end up buying a cheap drill press and mini-vise and some new quality bits.
Damned hobby.
I may setup the As3X with 0 gains for normal mode so I can fly it direct without it screwing with things, or throw in a standard Rx without stabilization. Thing is, I know one of the reasons they started with the AS3X was because they were putting out planes that required it to fly at all. Kind of like how modern fighter jets absolutely need computer control fly-by-wire because they fly for crap without the computer control making things go right. Visionaire is a big foamie though. Hopefully it is relatively stable without the assistance.
I also was doing some reading and I think my CG was way nose heavy. I was fighting a very strong nose up tendency under power. I dialed in a lot of down elevator to compensate. I didn't do a whole lot of gliding to see if the nose dipped hard when I let off the power. And when I was landing it was under very low power, but I was also focused on maintaining level flight to ground so didn't notice where I had elevator stick. With nose heavy I've read that it will tend to have this counter intuitive nose up under power tendency and then also tends toward canopy side when in knife edge. I think maybe that is what was going on, and because I was in normal flight mode the AS3X gains are pretty mild so it nosed over to inverted when I was in high bank at the end of the slow 180 turns and was starting to get on the throttle.
At least that's my thinking at the moment.
My new problem is that I bought an APC prop, but it won't fit on the motor shaft. So I need to drill out the hub. I don't own a press and even if I did, the bit I need to use is bent enough where the hole would be crap. So I ordered up a metric and standard stepped prop reamer and also a continuous tapered reamer in case I don't like the stepped ones. If that fails, then I'll end up buying a cheap drill press and mini-vise and some new quality bits.
Damned hobby.
Paul Volcko
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Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
Goblin 500, 700 - TRex 700 - Blade 550X, 300CFX - Spektrum DX9
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- danhampson
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
If your planning on trying 3d with this bird you d/r and expo should be more like 100% d/r and 50+% expo so that it's soft around center but at full stick you get full deflection of the control surfaces. It feels a bit weird at first but doesn't take long to get used to.
Sounds like you had some fun with this bird.
Sounds like you had some fun with this bird.
FPV addict.
Re: Parkzone Visionaire
That's how I do it.. CG is pretty critical on 3d planes.. U don't want to trim so much that u loose throw on on side and gain a ton on the other... Play with it.. Ull get it.. Every plane is different.
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
3D? Dude I crashed executing a 180 degree turn in relatively level flight. I'm no where near 3D with this thing yet. I'm flying it like a trainer at the moment.danhampson wrote:If your planning on trying 3d with this bird you d/r and expo should be more like 100% d/r and 50+% expo so that it's soft around center but at full stick you get full deflection of the control surfaces. It feels a bit weird at first but doesn't take long to get used to. Sounds like you had some fun with this bird.
No playing until I get this prop situation sorted out. Hopefully the hand reamers show up tomorrow so I can make a try at getting this APC prop to work. If it does then I'll probably take it out to the club field tomorrow afternoon.cml001 wrote:That's how I do it.. CG is pretty critical on 3d planes.. U don't want to trim so much that u loose throw on on side and gain a ton on the other... Play with it.. Ull get it.. Every plane is different.
Paul Volcko
RC-Hangout's Google+ | Paul's Google+
Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
Goblin 500, 700 - TRex 700 - Blade 550X, 300CFX - Spektrum DX9
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Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
OK so reamers showed up today. Ended up using the metric stepped to get it close then the tapered reamer to get it exact.
Got the 13x4 prop mounted then ran into a problem. The spinner wouldn't fit well over the larger prop. Said screw it and fastened it on anyway.
Adjusted the rudder to neutralize the trim from the maiden flight. Moved elevator back to neutral too but didn't adjust the linkage. Going to play with battery position and cg to see if that was the cause of the climbing behavior during the first two flights that lead to the elevator trim.
With any luck should get to the field tomorrow!
Got the 13x4 prop mounted then ran into a problem. The spinner wouldn't fit well over the larger prop. Said screw it and fastened it on anyway.
Adjusted the rudder to neutralize the trim from the maiden flight. Moved elevator back to neutral too but didn't adjust the linkage. Going to play with battery position and cg to see if that was the cause of the climbing behavior during the first two flights that lead to the elevator trim.
With any luck should get to the field tomorrow!
Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Finally got to flying this thing again today. Got sick of waiting for low wind so just went for it. Did ahalf a battery and ended up with trim on elevator around where I had it before. Hard to fly and ended up splashing a pool of standing water on the field when I landed. Dried it all off, got a look at the elevator from a ways back and zeroed out the trim. Definitely had a up elevator angle to it, so brought in the linkage 1.5 turns and took it up again.
Wow!
Much much better. Flies where you point it. No nose up/down on throttle. No odd rolling/tipping behaviors on turns. It was great. Flew 5 batteries. Did a couple dead stick landings. Even with the 10-15mph wind it was doable. I did two of them with two or three aborted attempts. Rolls, loops, stall turns. On a couple of aborted landings I rolled into the throttle very carefully and managed to get the plane to basically hang in mid air without moving forward or backward. Did some harriers and even a 10 second long hover or two. Next time I'll get some video. Forgot to bring the camera with me today, even though it would have been a great day for it since no one else was flying at the club.
Wow!
Much much better. Flies where you point it. No nose up/down on throttle. No odd rolling/tipping behaviors on turns. It was great. Flew 5 batteries. Did a couple dead stick landings. Even with the 10-15mph wind it was doable. I did two of them with two or three aborted attempts. Rolls, loops, stall turns. On a couple of aborted landings I rolled into the throttle very carefully and managed to get the plane to basically hang in mid air without moving forward or backward. Did some harriers and even a 10 second long hover or two. Next time I'll get some video. Forgot to bring the camera with me today, even though it would have been a great day for it since no one else was flying at the club.
Paul Volcko
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Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
Goblin 500, 700 - TRex 700 - Blade 550X, 300CFX - Spektrum DX9
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Awesome!
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Again with the 3D? I'm having enough trouble flying upright and in a semi-controlled manner. Forget inverted, much less 3D.
I got video of some of today's flights. Again very windy. Rendering it out now, should have it posted around midnight my time.
I got video of some of today's flights. Again very windy. Rendering it out now, should have it posted around midnight my time.
Paul Volcko
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Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
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Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
That's cool, Paul! I look forward to seeing your video! No worries of 3D nor inverted flying. Just fly it like it was a J3 Piper Cub....wings level, nose forward, landing gear down. Just take your time and get use to it. We are still quite early in the flying season. There's no rush!
Derek
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
OKay, longer then. Slow time warner cable upload speeds. Damn it why won't Verizon run FiOS here?!
Paul Volcko
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- danhampson
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Harriers, hovering loops and rolls all sound like the start of fixed wing 3d to me.
FPV addict.
Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Lol.. Me too... I wanted a heli cause they were big & kool.. Said I had no interest in 3D... Lol.. Riiight!
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
http://youtu.be/bVen-3EUZc8
These are two flights from my day yesterday. 3rd and 4th of the day. 9th and 10th ever. Or something like that.
Please excuse the poor audio quality. It was pretty windy. I had to dial back some frequencies to make it the slightest bit listenable.
In the second flight you'll hear me talking about one of the big differences between plane and heli flying: turning. I find I need to counteract banking tendency with the plane by using opposing aileron (opposed to rudder, that is) to keep the turns well coordinated. It feels a lot like how you execute coordinated turns with a heli when doing backwards flying. Where as with a heli (in FFF) you bank it into the turn, rudder around and use up elevator to keep it level (hitting dabs of more aileron to keep it banked through the turn as needed). It feels far more natural with a heli to me since you're banking and ruddering into the turn all the time and only use opposing aileron at the exit to re-level.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong with the plane? Not sure.
Anyway, switching between the two in the same day of flying lead to some confusion with me when it came time to fly the heli. It felt all weird to me until the end of the first pack when things started to get more natural again.
I've found I have a big weakness in executing clean counter clockwise turns off to my left. I don't know if it the perspective of the aircraft coming in toward me on that side or what but I get the willies and the whole thing looks like a mess. Doesn't matter if it is plane or heli.
These are two flights from my day yesterday. 3rd and 4th of the day. 9th and 10th ever. Or something like that.
Please excuse the poor audio quality. It was pretty windy. I had to dial back some frequencies to make it the slightest bit listenable.
In the second flight you'll hear me talking about one of the big differences between plane and heli flying: turning. I find I need to counteract banking tendency with the plane by using opposing aileron (opposed to rudder, that is) to keep the turns well coordinated. It feels a lot like how you execute coordinated turns with a heli when doing backwards flying. Where as with a heli (in FFF) you bank it into the turn, rudder around and use up elevator to keep it level (hitting dabs of more aileron to keep it banked through the turn as needed). It feels far more natural with a heli to me since you're banking and ruddering into the turn all the time and only use opposing aileron at the exit to re-level.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong with the plane? Not sure.
Anyway, switching between the two in the same day of flying lead to some confusion with me when it came time to fly the heli. It felt all weird to me until the end of the first pack when things started to get more natural again.
I've found I have a big weakness in executing clean counter clockwise turns off to my left. I don't know if it the perspective of the aircraft coming in toward me on that side or what but I get the willies and the whole thing looks like a mess. Doesn't matter if it is plane or heli.
Paul Volcko
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Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
Goblin 500, 700 - TRex 700 - Blade 550X, 300CFX - Spektrum DX9
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Citizen #72 - Bending and breaking helis since Jan 2013
Goblin 500, 700 - TRex 700 - Blade 550X, 300CFX - Spektrum DX9
Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Sweet!
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Nice job, Paul! Twice off the ground, twice flying around, and twice safely to the ground! Awesome!
You are right, though, about turning a plane. To make a left turn, you will rudder stick left and use a bit of right aileron to stay "coordinated" in the turn. If you were to rudder stick left and aileron left, the plane would surely roll into a spiral. Go on the sim and experiment with that and you'll see what "can" happen.
You said that you have a weakness in executing clean counter clockwise turns of to your left. I am the same way...it just feels weird. It's just gonna take more practice to get past that....for both of us.
You really did a great job with the Visionaire, Paul! I saw several loops and a few rolls. The plane went home in one piece....life is GOOD!
You are right, though, about turning a plane. To make a left turn, you will rudder stick left and use a bit of right aileron to stay "coordinated" in the turn. If you were to rudder stick left and aileron left, the plane would surely roll into a spiral. Go on the sim and experiment with that and you'll see what "can" happen.
You said that you have a weakness in executing clean counter clockwise turns of to your left. I am the same way...it just feels weird. It's just gonna take more practice to get past that....for both of us.
You really did a great job with the Visionaire, Paul! I saw several loops and a few rolls. The plane went home in one piece....life is GOOD!
Derek
Foam Board Scratch Build Plane Fanatic
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- Vipertech13
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Re: Parkzone Visionaire
Nice flights. I have never flown a heli so I have no feeling of the controls.
With planes the you can bank and yank ( aileron left or right) "bank" and (pull back on the elevator) "Yank" . You can Rudder right or left and you have to add elevator lightly. The fun turns are the coordinated one where you rudder left and aileron right or vise versa to make a beautiful flat turn, they look so cool but are the most complicated.
I know what you mean about changing directions, I fight that issue too, You have to make your self go in the other direction. I try to have a flight plan that makes me change directions but its hard to do!
Great flying! Congrats brother!
With planes the you can bank and yank ( aileron left or right) "bank" and (pull back on the elevator) "Yank" . You can Rudder right or left and you have to add elevator lightly. The fun turns are the coordinated one where you rudder left and aileron right or vise versa to make a beautiful flat turn, they look so cool but are the most complicated.
I know what you mean about changing directions, I fight that issue too, You have to make your self go in the other direction. I try to have a flight plan that makes me change directions but its hard to do!
Great flying! Congrats brother!
"No Thanks, I don't need another plane!" Said no one ever!
Re: Parkzone Visionaire
very nice smooth flying Paul, thats a cool plane. looks like it could be a great trainer too..
Tony - AKA Blackwarrior - nice to be home again
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HK450 FBL - Hubsan X4 - RCX H250 FPV Quad with Skyzone goggles..
I reserve the right to be wrong: if proved wrong: I reserve the right to change my mind!!